Curse

Thom · Aug 30, 2006, 08:44 AM // 08:44

This seems to be the biggest change for balanced builds since dynamics are very different in a 3-man backline versus 2-man. Options I've seen on the table:
GvG standards:
Boon-Prot/Blessed
Double Boon-Prot
Double Blessed
HA modified:
WoH/Boon-Prot
WoH/Blessed
WoH/Prot
...

Other questions:
Will Mo/A Blessed monks have a place?
What will the enchantment removal meta-game look like-- will things like bonders become feasible as teams drop NR and OoA?
How with the reduction in benefit effect the relative efficiency of "party skills"-- aegis, wards, martyr, extinguish, heal party (orders for that matter)?
How will lesser spike threat effect healing structure? Are SB and infuse things of the past?

I'm just outlining a list of things on the table. All thoughts would be helpful.

JR · Aug 30, 2006, 09:17 AM // 09:17

I think Word Healers will always be big, purely because they are a decent place to throw Healing Seed. Dual Boon/B-Light backlines aren't really going to be able to easily.

Dual Boon Prots makes you very vaunerable to Natures, and simmilar hate. As such I don't think running two is very wise untill it is proven that Natures is made less popular in HA in a six man metagame.

Dual B-Light monks is interested, as you could fit a weak seed on them if you wanted. However, without a Boon Prot i'm not sure how well they would stand up to serious melee pressure in an environment where positioning is less important.

SB-Infuse is definately dead as far as I am concerned. Without another two Monks to carry the mostly dead weight of this character it will be extremely weak.

I personally plan to largely run a Boon/Word backline over the event, unless actual experience once participating points to other choices being better.

Burton2000 · Aug 30, 2006, 11:24 AM // 11:24

I think running RC Prot combined with WoH will be standard as if the prot is good he can stop any spike and reduce a lot of damage with word monk providing all the heals they need. Also if teams dont run RC then its just asking for vim and other condition teams to own them.

Aryn Rand · Aug 30, 2006, 11:53 AM // 11:53

Running gift of health is not that bad on a rc and can make up for the healing lost.
I think qz/natures/tranq builds with 1 necro and 1 rit healer(rit healer with qz is pretty good) will be fun to try.
It will also bee good boonprot hate.

Nurse With Wound · Aug 30, 2006, 12:30 PM // 12:30

We will definatly start with one boon/prot, one blessed light backline, although if the enchantment hate would be too severe for boons, we might consider running RC/prot + WOH backline.

Kabale · Aug 30, 2006, 02:19 PM // 14:19

I'm opting for BoonProt and WoH. And gale somewhere so spirits aren't a problem.

What about channeling? I probably wouldn't bother... it could still be useful in HoH though, or if IWAY still decides to stick around...

In any case, bonders should be viable now if you can control spirits + the 1 necro that IWAY would have (can't see them having 2 anymore).

I believe we'll see a lot of 2 warrior teams though. Definately.

Divineshadows · Aug 30, 2006, 04:35 PM // 16:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kabale

And gale somewhere so spirits aren't a problem.

Gale is one of the best skills in the game. Maybe now it will actually see more play in HA.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kabale

What about channeling? I probably wouldn't bother... it could still be useful in HoH though, or if IWAY still decides to stick around...

Losing channeling monks would make HA less HA-like and create a gametype I can actually enjoy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom

How with the reduction in benefit effect the relative efficiency of "party skills"-- aegis, wards, martyr, extinguish, heal party (orders for that matter)?
How will lesser spike threat effect healing structure? Are SB and infuse things of the past?

SB was always garbage. Now you are hard pressed to try and fit it in so it easy to pass on. Infuse still fits in some builds I think and is a good skill to have for quick saves on your ghostly and team members alike. With spiking power being less, I think the amount of spike disruption necessary is less which is a good thing because there are less skill slots to fit spike disruption.

Heal party is still more efficient than any other healing spell in a 6v6 setting. At 12 healing, 67*6=402 healing for 15 energy. Only things that rival this energy efficiency are gift of health and a conditional word of healing.

I am betting that having 2 pure monks is going to be sub-optimal for 6v6 play. Fitting a spike assist onto one of the monks (such as a vamp gaze or something of the like) for those times when your team needs your adrenal spike to be up an extra notch is going to prevent a lot of the long drawn out matches. Running a boon prot with 2 AoE smiters I think would provide a solid enough backline. Or perhaps even a prodigy ward/healer with ob flame to assist on some spikes alongside a boon prot.

Lord Dark Genie · Aug 30, 2006, 05:13 PM // 17:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divineshadows

Losing channeling monks would make HA less HA-like and create a gametype I can actually enjoy.

Thumpers are a good candidate for pressure builds, that makes channeling very viable IMO.

Quote:

Heal party is still more efficient than any other healing spell in a 6v6 setting. At 12 healing, 67*6=402 healing for 15 energy. Only things that rival this energy efficiency are gift of health and a conditional word of healing.

Don't forget time efficiency. Even in 6v6 it'll help a lot against degen teams.

Quote:

I am betting that having 2 pure monks is going to be sub-optimal for 6v6 play. Fitting a spike assist onto one of the monks (such as a vamp gaze or something of the like) for those times when your team needs your adrenal spike to be up an extra notch is going to prevent a lot of the long drawn out matches. Running a boon prot with 2 AoE smiters I think would provide a solid enough backline. Or perhaps even a prodigy ward/healer with ob flame to assist on some spikes alongside a boon prot.

I'm pretty sure the "standard" backline will be 2 monks. Don't forget that there's this guy called Ghostly Hero who doesn't know what kiting is.

The main problem with running only one monk is shut-down. You need a way to save people when the monk gets knocked down or blacked out.

Divineshadows · Aug 30, 2006, 08:55 PM // 20:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Dark Genie

I'm pretty sure the "standard" backline will be 2 monks. Don't forget that there's this guy called Ghostly Hero who doesn't know what kiting is.

The main problem with running only one monk is shut-down. You need a way to save people when the monk gets knocked down or blacked out.

I agree that more than one player needs to be able to save on a spike for 6v6, but I disagree that there has to be 2 pure monks whose entire bars are devoted to protecting/healing/energy management. Having one of the 2 monks or monk-like players who has the option to assist on a spike (i.e. if it seems safe to do so) has a lot of value in my mind to actually generating kills in situations where you may not be able to otherwise.

With party size reduced to 6, I anticipate that the turnover in HoH will be even higher than normal due to more sacrafices being made on the defensive/healing side of builds than on the offensive side of builds. I really do not see any team being able to consistently hold against two other teams of 6 who similiarly made very few reductions in their offense when adjusting from an 8 man team. I expect the longer consecutive holds to come from teams that consistently cede the altar, but then find creative ways to re-capture in time. For this reason, a non-kiting ghostly becomes less of an issue. At least, this is the premise I am designing my builds around...

Thom · Aug 31, 2006, 03:08 AM // 03:08

Thanks for the discussion guys.

I would agree that many teams will try to go to one pure monk and 1-2 "swing" characters, or pack an offensive skill on a monk. That said, I find the two monk systems to be more interesting especially in "formula" builds.

The idea of Word of Health on an RC-prot sounds somewhat intreguing. That addresses my primary concerns with a WoH/RC build, but I'm still not sure how it would handle pressure-- if anyone has a build (or link to a build) that would be nice.

Two skills that will be slightly less efficient, but are central to the HA meta-game: Channelling and Healing Seed. Healers will be responsible for more people and channelling will be less efficient, so will the old HA standards hold up?

There are no right answers without knowing the details of the offensive meta-game. JR is probably going the safest route, but I don't know how many "HA people" will feel comfortable taking a boon-prot. I feel that NR will be less efficient since it basically commits you to an Oath Shot ranger, which I don't feel is the strongest with only 5 other players.

Ss Executioner · Aug 31, 2006, 03:40 AM // 03:40

Something you might also want to consider, is the smite teams running smiters with boon.. such as 3 warriors 3 boon smiters (if you've never ran one don't argue with me please)

Innocent · Aug 31, 2006, 07:22 AM // 07:22

I was thinking WoH/Infuse + Boon/Prot. A warder would help with defense too.

How about this? http://gwshack.us/672c6

Kabale · Aug 31, 2006, 09:00 AM // 09:00

Quote:

Two skills that will be slightly less efficient, but are central to the HA meta-game: Channelling and Healing Seed. Healers will be responsible for more people and channelling will be less efficient, so will the old HA standards hold up?

It's hard to predict how useful Channeling will be, it all depends on what offensive format people will be taking with them. If it's Thumpers, then yeah I suppose it's still viable, but if there's not a bunch of silly pets running around it may be better to exchange it to something 'offensive' such as Drain Enchant (or, bring Inspired Enchant and drain an enemy monk's Channeling, or perhaps even Mantra of Recall, etc.).

On the other hand, Healing Seed still needs to be in there somewhere IMO, even if it is solely for the use of sticking on the Ghostly.

I doubt Infuse will be useful anymore, again it depends. SB is out of the picture, and should make killing other Ghostlies easier.

Quote:

I feel that NR will be less efficient since it basically commits you to an Oath Shot ranger, which I don't feel is the strongest with only 5 other players.

Not only that, but if there is an NR presence, chances are they won't bring more than one copy of it (I'm thinking of IWAY when I say this, but I suppose it could apply to NR/TQ builds too) and hence should be easy to shut down.

Sacho · Aug 31, 2006, 10:09 AM // 10:09

What about Monk-Rit backlines? The rit can easily be spike support and provide good protection, while the monk could be a blessed light or healing monk. Plus some off-healing ie heal other on ele.

In order for HA to improve Ghostly Heroes need to be removed. It's as simple as that. When several maps depend on AI to win, people will always abuse the heck out of it.

Messner · Aug 31, 2006, 04:39 PM // 16:39

This is tombs, not gvg, there is no split, there is no penalty for losing there are impatient teams and players and more than enough builds to go around that will be capitalizing on the weakend monk backlines. 90% of people who run Mo/A don't understand why the build is there, the healing power over time of a Mo/A build sucks, ask EviL how it worked at VOD vs iQ. It's a build that begins to crumble under pressure over even a short time but in the end a build designed to heal targets taking damage and kiting while allowing for extreme mobility. I think to run a monk in a healing role in tombs and not run channeling or other solid energy management is simply retarded, NR/Tranq builds noted. I think we can expect to see NR in many groups as most will be going with the WoH monk and the boon prot for a backline.

Snype · Sep 01, 2006, 02:46 AM // 02:46

Well I think it is obvious that due to the 2 monk backline standard in a 6 man team, hex builds will dominate. Even if there are 2 hex removals on each monk, that still leaves plenty of room open for hex heavy builds to dominate. The only possible solution would be to run expel hexes on a mesmer.

Lord Dark Genie · Sep 01, 2006, 05:39 PM // 17:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snype

Well I think it is obvious that due to the 2 monk backline standard in a 6 man team, hex builds will dominate. Even if there are 2 hex removals on each monk, that still leaves plenty of room open for hex heavy builds to dominate. The only possible solution would be to run expel hexes on a mesmer.

Balanced teams will run off-monk hex removal anyway I think. What I'm more worried about with degen teams is that they'll rock teams without heal party.

EaT Macros · Sep 01, 2006, 06:23 PM // 18:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Dark Genie

What I'm more worried about with degen teams is that they'll rock teams without heal party.

Isn't that allways the case?

matti.ftw · Sep 01, 2006, 10:24 PM // 22:24

Smaller teams means u need more damage if u wanna atempt doing a spike, so most teams will bring something on their monks, in that case, their build should be based arround an elite with 5 nrg. Cuze if u are gonna assist with smite, ob flame or pp shatter, theres not much chanse of the monk being able to keep his energy up without a bipper. Just run modded woh builds (with draw/mend split out on the monks), and extinguish on nec or ele. Just spread out ur defence and offence, otherwise u wont be able to maintain urself against multiple teams. I think this is the right time to try running expell hexes on something u would normally roll.

Celab · Sep 01, 2006, 10:33 PM // 22:33

Hmm... I'm Just going to try and run a TA build realy. Apart with 2 extra people for some extra shutdown and pressure. One good monk is enough if you shut the right people down, although they will still be strained alot.